Curse

Smarty · May 21, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

I'm bumping this thread because I'm having the same problem as the OP.

Backstory: I used to use Dunkoro with a HB bar as part of my 4-man VQ pseudosabway team build many months ago and he did a great job of keeping the party alive. He seemed to do a much better job with a pure heal build than he'd ever done as a WoH hybrid. I switched over to using triple necros for discord once I reached the bigger areas and stopped using hero monks. I had to use Dunkoro again for something a few months ago and he still had the same bar as I'd had on him in the 4-man areas, but he wasn't healing. At all.

I've experimented a little, and reported my findings so far to ANet, but I can't figure out exactly what the problem skill or skills is/are on his bar. Other people run HB bars on their heroes, so I have no idea why my heroes can't. Despite the criticisms of HB I'd still like to be able to run it again, as I think a HB hero works better with my monk than a WoH hybrid hero, so it'd be great if someone can help me figure out what skills I can use on him.

The builds I used to use successfully: OwYS0YITNgwVbEZETffEIDxV (patient spirit, watchful healing, dwayna's kiss, orison of healing, cure hex, heal party, glyph lesser, HB) and OwYS0YITNgbEbaTffEIDxVoR (swap orison and watchful for dismiss condition and res chant, otherwise as above), both with 12 healing 12 divine. I've tried changing out some of these skills for others to see if matters improve - see below.

What I'm seeing in game: Dunkoro will cast and maintain HB. He will use glyph of lesser energy on recharge. He won't use any spells on his bar (other than HB) if there are enemies in aggro range, even though he has full energy and I'm practically dead. Once the enemies die he will heal any remaining hexes/conditions/damage, but if more enemies aggro he will stop again. If I give him signet of rejuvenation he will use that on recharge. If I take the enchants other than HB off his bar and if he is set to guard rather than avoid, he will cast some spells but isn't very effective and will still let me die even when he has energy left and skills not recharging. If he's set to avoid he's less inclined to cast. If I disable HB he uses his remaining skills properly.

Note that I've seen all this by having his skillbar open in game and watched what skills he's using (or rather not using) and seen what his energy is. It is not a case of him spamming himself out of energy with heal party!

So, (a) can anyone else duplicate this bug, (b) if so can you work out what the problem is?, and (c) does anyone have a hero HB bar that they know works?

Joiry · May 21, 2009, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I've noticed the same behavior recently while playing on my alts. My main mostly uses 3 nerco sabway, but my alts often have to make do with a hero monk.

Several recent zquest missions (Jokunar, Borlis), I've definitely noticed my hero monk will not heal on its own, despite having full energy, full health - just standing there, doing nothing (set to avoid combat). While either I, or one of my other heroes, health bar just goes down and down and eventually dies unless I begin to micromanage.

After combat its fine, the monk is heal happy to waste all its energy healing everyone up.

The build I'm using is nearly identical to your second one, Smartpants, except I have restore life, and I've been switching between Heal Party and Orison, to see if a simple, quick spam skill like orison would be used more often by my apathetic monk.

Perhaps there's something odd with the patient spirit/dwayna kiss combo? The build seemed to be working fine a few weeks ago.

eeks · May 22, 2009, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

What I'm seeing in game: Dunkoro will cast and maintain HB. He will use glyph of lesser energy on recharge. He won't use any spells on his bar (other than HB) if there are enemies in aggro range, even though he has full energy and I'm practically dead. Once the enemies die he will heal any remaining hexes/conditions/damage, but if more enemies aggro he will stop again. If I give him signet of rejuvenation he will use that on recharge. If I take the enchants other than HB off his bar and if he is set to guard rather than avoid, he will cast some spells but isn't very effective and will still let me die even when he has energy left and skills not recharging. If he's set to avoid he's less inclined to cast. If I disable HB he uses his remaining skills properly.

Note that I've seen all this by having his skillbar open in game and watched what skills he's using (or rather not using) and seen what his energy is. It is not a case of him spamming himself out of energy with heal party!

So, (a) can anyone else duplicate this bug, (b) if so can you work out what the problem is?, and (c) does anyone have a hero HB bar that they know works?

I've had that exact problem recently, but with Ogden. That shouldn't matter, however, I suppose.

Anyway, I was monking through Defending Champion's Dawn with Ogden along with Vekk and Gwen. I noticed that I appeared to be the only one healing, so I opened up Ogden's skillbar; Ogden would do the same things as you described (cast HB, then GoLE and not actually use anything else), additionally he'd sporadically use Dismiss Condition.

I watched him for a bit, to see what he'd do at around 100 health, whilst healing the other two myself. Absolutely nothing, despite having most of his energy. I had to resurrect him, as he just stood there and let himself die. Guess I was hoping he'd cast a last second heal.

I also deviated between setting him on guard and passive, yet his weird behaviour remained the same.

He occassionally healed the other members of the party more often than himself, yet not often enough that healing was divided equally between the two of us.

Really irritating, I'll see what he does with other builds.

Edit: All right, I gave a WoH hybrid build, and a Blessed Light build a go (the latter having energy-gain interrupts). Ogden used both quite effectively, both interrupting when low on energy and using WoH when party members were below 50% health. HB the issue here?

Starfox Cloud · May 22, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

I made the same experience, dunkoror wasn't healing anyone, also he was full on energy. I disabled GolE, and he startet healing the normal way..., spamming skills until no energy was left I think there is something wrong in his interpretation of GolE, he seems to wait for skills with high energy cost to not waste the glyph... strange...

Smarty · May 22, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starfox Cloud

I made the same experience, dunkoror wasn't healing anyone, also he was full on energy. I disabled GolE, and he startet healing the normal way..., spamming skills until no energy was left I think there is something wrong in his interpretation of GolE, he seems to wait for skills with high energy cost to not waste the glyph... strange...

So maybe it's the HB/GoLE combo that's the problem? Bummer if so because the only point of running HB in the first place is to take Heal Party, and I imagine Heal Party without the glyph is going to be hell on a hero's energy. Will try the bar without the glyph next time I get chance to play and see what happens. Thanks for the idea.

Lyger · Jun 03, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I've had this problem recently to. Going through Eternal Grove HM with an alliance buddy, I took my team of heroes (including Dunkoro) to kill a seige turtle on one side, while my alliance buddy took his heroes to the other side. My Dunkoro was set up with a WoH hybrid build that included GoLE. It wasn't until Souske and Olias got killed that I realised something was up - I looked at Dunkoro, and he was sitting on full energy wanding the enemies (I have him set to guard). It resulted in us restarting the mission, as Dunkoro just wouldn't heal anyone, so my mini team wiped.

After the restart, Dunkoro started working fine again. Very odd, and very annoying. I think GoLE seems to be the common denominator here. I'll take it off his bar until this issue seems to be solved, though for the most part Dunkoro will use the skill completely fine, and without deciding to let a team die.

Paul Dawg · Jul 22, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

I think this is the answer.

And a related thing that confuses me: Am I insane or does the AI use the exact same bar differently depending on the time of day, confluence of the stars, or God knows what? (That would explain why GoLE is usually fine but sometimes fubar.) Usually my curser uses defile defenses like a champ. But other times the foes are blocking like mad, and I glance over to see what he's doing, and defile defenses is sitting there happily waiting for him to use it. If I manual it a few times, he starts using it again on his own. I've noticed the same thing with blazing finale. Sometimes he uses it on me like a superhero. Other times I'm like--wait, all kinds of shouts are ending on me, where is blazing finale? Oh, and same thing with necros and foul feast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starfox Cloud

I think there is something wrong in his interpretation of GolE, he seems to wait for skills with high energy cost to not waste the glyph... strange...

Necromas · Jul 22, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

The monk hero AI is very conservative about energy compared to the other hero AI. Unlike an elementalist hero, they will always try to get the most out of their energy management, including glyph of lesser energy. While this prevents them from using skills like power drain at bad times (like at the start of a fight before they've cast anything to lower their energy) or just power casting through their monk spells as often as possible and just burning through their pool, this also means glyph of lesser energy will never be used with a 5e heal, and heal party will never be used unless the damage is pretty spread out across the party.

HB + GoLE + HP is overrated anyways, even with players that know how to use them well.

Life Bringing · Jul 23, 2009, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

I'm bumping this thread because I'm having the same problem as the OP.

Backstory: I used to use Dunkoro with a HB bar as part of my 4-man VQ pseudosabway team build many months ago and he did a great job of keeping the party alive. He seemed to do a much better job with a pure heal build than he'd ever done as a WoH hybrid. I switched over to using triple necros for discord once I reached the bigger areas and stopped using hero monks. I had to use Dunkoro again for something a few months ago and he still had the same bar as I'd had on him in the 4-man areas, but he wasn't healing. At all.

I've experimented a little, and reported my findings so far to ANet, but I can't figure out exactly what the problem skill or skills is/are on his bar. Other people run HB bars on their heroes, so I have no idea why my heroes can't. Despite the criticisms of HB I'd still like to be able to run it again, as I think a HB hero works better with my monk than a WoH hybrid hero, so it'd be great if someone can help me figure out what skills I can use on him.

The builds I used to use successfully: OwYS0YITNgwVbEZETffEIDxV (patient spirit, watchful healing, dwayna's kiss, orison of healing, cure hex, heal party, glyph lesser, HB) and OwYS0YITNgbEbaTffEIDxVoR (swap orison and watchful for dismiss condition and res chant, otherwise as above), both with 12 healing 12 divine. I've tried changing out some of these skills for others to see if matters improve - see below.

What I'm seeing in game: Dunkoro will cast and maintain HB. He will use glyph of lesser energy on recharge. He won't use any spells on his bar (other than HB) if there are enemies in aggro range, even though he has full energy and I'm practically dead. Once the enemies die he will heal any remaining hexes/conditions/damage, but if more enemies aggro he will stop again. If I give him signet of rejuvenation he will use that on recharge. If I take the enchants other than HB off his bar and if he is set to guard rather than avoid, he will cast some spells but isn't very effective and will still let me die even when he has energy left and skills not recharging. If he's set to avoid he's less inclined to cast. If I disable HB he uses his remaining skills properly.

Note that I've seen all this by having his skillbar open in game and watched what skills he's using (or rather not using) and seen what his energy is. It is not a case of him spamming himself out of energy with heal party!

So, (a) can anyone else duplicate this bug, (b) if so can you work out what the problem is?, and (c) does anyone have a hero HB bar that they know works?

What's goign on here is a bug in the hero AI. The base of the problem comes from GoLE. When a hero has GoLE on it's status bar or w/e, it will ONLY use skills that are 10 energy or more. To get around this, i just stopped making my monk heroes /e. Instead, go mo/me and bring Power Drain and WN,WN. It's actually more powerful energy management without the lame glitchyness of GoLE.

Smarty · Jul 23, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

A friend gave me a HB/GoLE build that works. I can't say I'm 100% happy with the skills on it, but at least it's not bugged. So, for all you terrible players like me out there who like redbarsup heroes set to avoid more than you do prot or hybrid heroes set to guard, here you are:

OwYT04nB3Zj872031PCyIuiGBA (Dwayna's Kiss, Ethereal Light, Dismiss Condition, Shield of Absorption, Heal Party, GoLE, HB, reschant)

*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

And a related thing that confuses me: Am I insane or does the AI use the exact same bar differently depending on the time of day, confluence of the stars, or God knows what?

You are not insane. (Or at least, you're no more insane than I am, which is no consolation whatsoever. *wibble*) I swear I've noticed the same things you have and have been able to "reset" the hero AI by manualling skills they've forgotten to use. Enfeebling Blood is a favourite "forgotten" skill, which is a real pita when discording as an imba rather than as AP caller.

AtomicMew · Jul 23, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is an additional cost for offensive energy management on monk heroes, which many people dont realize. If you put on offensive energy management, then the monk has to set on guard and you can't use a caster sword/axe for him or he would run forward and melee the target. Hero monks also dont kite from melee attackers as fast, if they are busy wanding their targets.

Depending on the type of offensive e-management you bring, it may not be usable in some situations. For example, Pdrain if only melee monsters, who dont cast spells, are alive. This means they can't use it to replenish their energy then.

Considering the small, negligible, amount of wand damage and small offensive damage from the monk, passive energy management is generally better because it is safer, especially considering the limitations of the AI.

I don't see setting to guard as so much of a problem. If you're melee, guard means you don't have to chase after you taret if it decides to go chase after your monk. Also, if you have orders or OotV, spear auto-attack will add a decent amount of cumilative damage.

The BIGGER problem IMO is that offensive e-management like Pdrain OFTEN miss! Playing through normal mode margonites, dunkuro missed Pdrain 30.7% of the time! Not only that, but heroes don't use Pdrain nearly as much as they should!

The best e-management is simply using necro heroes. A necro hero will out-monk a monk any day of the week. Here's a prot/smite hybrid hero I've been using:

OANQQXauEJgVV3VBE1DzDA

Paul Dawg · Jul 23, 2009, 08:06 AM // 08:06

If you're doing HB, I really don't think you want a hybrid build. Just throw on another 10+ e skill like heal area. But there aren't too many great 10e healing skills to choose from.

So I still kinda think WoH builds are better for heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

A friend gave me a HB/GoLE build that works. I can't say I'm 100% happy with the skills on it, but at least it's not bugged. So, for all you terrible players like me out there who like redbarsup heroes set to avoid more than you do prot or hybrid heroes set to guard, here you are:

OwYT04nB3Zj872031PCyIuiGBA (Dwayna's Kiss, Ethereal Light, Dismiss Condition, Shield of Absorption, Heal Party, GoLE, HB, reschant)

Smarty · Jul 23, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

No I agree, I don't want it HB hybrid, which is why I said I wasn't 100% happy with it. However I'm lazy and cba (atm) to bother working out which skills I can replace without winding up back where I was, with him casting only HB and GoLE and nothing else during combat, so it'll do for me for now.

Not that I use monk heroes all that often anyway, but the info might be useful for someone else.

Paul Dawg · Jul 24, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

P.S. Glad to see that someone else is noticing the same glitches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

You are not insane. (Or at least, you're no more insane than I am, which is no consolation whatsoever. *wibble*) I swear I've noticed the same things you have and have been able to "reset" the hero AI by manualling skills they've forgotten to use. Enfeebling Blood is a favourite "forgotten" skill, which is a real pita when discording as an imba rather than as AP caller.

AtomicMew · Jul 24, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I don't understand the point of monk healer heroes. Can someone please explain to me? Necros do it way better. Except for the first few seconds of battle, you're going to get way more heals from a N/Rt or N/Mo than a Mo/E anyday. The only way a Mo/E will work is if you have some kind of external e-management, like BiP or blood ritual on hero #2. But that's pretty prohibitive considering how bad that bungles another hero #2.

Smarty · Jul 24, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Missions that require Dunkoro or Tahlkora, basically.

IIRC this all came about when I was on my monk and did a zmission that required Dunkoro. I was taking care of the prots and I had PS/aegis on a necro so I wanted him to do pure redbarsup. I gave him the HB bar that I'd worked out for him when playing Smarty in my pre-discord days, and he wasn't doing any combat healing. Tbh I can't see many occasions in future when I'd be likely to use a HB hero again (as has been said here and in other threads, there are better bars and better classes available the majority of the time) but for those few occasions I wanted a working build, and I assumed others who'd encountered the same problem as me might also want it. It's not me advocating using one under normal circumstances.

Paul Dawg · Jul 24, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

I'm not 100% sold on the idea that primary necroes are the best healers. There are Mo/Me builds that can maintain their energy, even in HM, quite well:

12+1+1 healing, 12+1 divine favor, 3 inspiration magic
channeling
dwayna's sorrow
word of healing
signet of rejuvenation
dwayna's kiss
patient spirit
vigorous spirit
restore life

Those skills are so cheap that he usually doesn't need more e-management than just channeling, but if you REALLY find that he needs more, ratchet up his inspiration magic by taking a point or two away from divine favor, and throw on something like power drain instead of patient spirit.

Protters and hybrids tend to have a harder time maintaining their energy because prot and smite skills tend to be more expensive. Pure healers are usually OK.

Where primary necroes stand out is their ability to do more than just heal. Take this bar, for example (modified from Sabway):

8+1+1 soul reaping, 12 restoration, 10 channeling
Xinrae's weapon
splinter weapon
weapon of warding
mend body and soul
spirit light
protective was Kaolai
life
foul feast

That's not going to HEAL quite as efficiently as the Mo/Me bar, but it's going to do much, much more. The splinter weapon is a gem, and don't forget that foul feast is the most versatile condition-removal skill in the whole game. So overall, I'd have to say that the N/Rt bar is more useful.

AtomicMew · Jul 24, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Dawg

12+1+1 healing, 12+1 divine favor, 3 inspiration magic
channeling
dwayna's sorrow
word of healing
signet of rejuvenation
dwayna's kiss
patient spirit
vigorous spirit
restore life

I'm not completely sold on channeling as viable e-management, but I haven't really tried it out enough to make a judgement.

Regardless, that build suffers the exact same problems as HB. You have 3 spammable heals on that bar. If the answer for that build is channeling, it seems like it should work just as well on an HB monk.

Carnivorous Cupcake · Jul 25, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

traversc

I find Channeling superior to GoE for example because only thing your hero would need to do to exploit it to full potential is mantaining it, which it does perfectly. GoE on other hand has to be used before certain skills for best results which heroes dont cope with well enough.
There are at least 3-4 foes in Channeling's range making the 5 energy spells on that bar prety much free.

Improvavel · Jul 25, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I don't understand the point of monk healer heroes. Can someone please explain to me? Necros do it way better. Except for the first few seconds of battle, you're going to get way more heals from a N/Rt or N/Mo than a Mo/E anyday. The only way a Mo/E will work is if you have some kind of external e-management, like BiP or blood ritual on hero #2. But that's pretty prohibitive considering how bad that bungles another hero #2.

I don't see the point either to run a pure heal monk.

If you running a monk hero you better give him aegis and PS at least plus hex removal that N/Rt can't do.

About the Gole thing - with WoH hybrids I find they cast WoH and other 5e skill with np under gole.

If anything, the annoying bit is that they sometimes don't cast gole on recharge.